WCMA Forum
Road Racing => Race Discussion Board => Topic started by: Icedawg on August 25, 2009, 07:56:35 PM
-
We all seem to be so nice and serious on this board. Time for some real opinions, some that could get us in trouble with lawyers somewhere on the planet.
Let's talk about the R888 tires from Toyo. What opinion have you formed of them over this season? And do remember when responding, if you bought them, then you must officially be sponsored by Toyo.
I'm going to start this off by saying that the incredibly large Spec Miata class in the US has been reported in Grassroots Motorsports to have determined that they will run Toyo RA1's next year. They could not have announced this without Toyo having agreed to produce the RA1 tires. Where does that leave the rest of us?
In the Challenge Car, RX7 class, most driver's have stated they are not happy with the life of the R888 tires, as they seem to last only 2/3 as long. And most driver's are not convinced they are any better than the RA1's when they are working. Some think old bald RA1's are about as good as new R888's. Those that have brought this up with Toyo have simply been told they need to reduce the camber. Looking at the wear on my tires, which is admittedly much more even than the RA1 wear ever was, I can not believe that the camber is affecting the overall life of these tires. (Especially since I had already reduced the camber and got the even wear.) But it is very clear the lifetime of the tires is less than the RA1 when run on an RX7.
And what do you think?
-
R888 - Stickier. Consistent. Wears faster. Likes more camber on FWD it seems. Likes lower start pressures to keep centre from wearing out. Costs more. Has a "bling factor" that the RA1 lacks. Worth it? - Dont know.
Apparently most NASA spec classes will be returning to the RA1 for 2010 (Toyo is a sponsor/affiliate of NASA). Thus the assumption that the RA1 will remain in production seems to be true.
Sturat 77
-
They wear out way faster
Done faster times on bald RA1's on same day
They get greasy quick.
Bleeecchhh!
-
http://www.nasaproracing.com/
Here's the link to nasa going back to RA1's.
I've read a ton of comparision stuff on forums trying to decide if it was worth the switch. Most of the consensus in the world was the setups were different between tires. Once you got the car to work on the R888's it was ok for tire wear, and they were faster.
This was mostly people who were running shaved ra1's as comparison.
-
Hey Super Dave,
Gotta disagree...
I read a lot of stuff, based on a google search of..RA1 vs R88, and got a general feeling of dissatisfaction.
Hey, when whole classes of these guys decide to pack them in , there's gotta be a reason. We get well past shaved RA1's in CC, we run them bald, and I have better times on bald RA1's than R888's on the same day.
Zoom zoom
-
Sorry brooke my "world" is generally front wheel drive. You may have seen something in rwd.
It will be interestig to see what sizes are going to be available when the RA1 goes back into production.
http://cache.toyotires.com/sites/default/files/imce/Spec_Miata_R888_Setup_Guidelines.pdf
This was interesting
-
Aim Tire is very good and knowledgable and I would tend to believe what they say.
With many spec classes going back to RA1 next year it may be moot but there is some very good info here especially the point about using a very high starting pressure.
http://www.aimtire.com/typ_category.asp?Unique=40062%2E3269675926&ObjectID=6828
-
Hey,
Interesting article. We have found that high pressures wear out the middle of the tires really quickly, and to make them last, we have actually been starting lower than the RA1's, and ending up in the 35 - 36 lb range when hot.
-
Agreed with the pressures as well Brooke! I was told one would need to start lower and all my tire temp data from last weekend shows this to be very true. Another interesting point is that Toyo recommends lower camber values than the RA1...all my collected tire temp data and observations from other front wheel drivers is that these tires actually need more negative camber than the RA1's....
I have only had one race weekend on them but am not that impressed so far. They started out great and just steadily dropped off...to the point I took the car for a swim maybe? Still not sure what happened with the swamp incident other than the car kept rotating as I came past my corner track out point of the chicane? Did the tires just quit gripping, driver error or a mechanical issue with the car. I haven't found a mechanical issue yet. My track time has been limited this year so lack of set time could explain, tires not wanting to grip could also explain. I would need more seat time on the tires to say one way or the other but like I said my initial impression isn't great so far.
Unfortunately the begging question is if they don't bring back RA1's what other decent option of tire is there for us budget mined folks who can' t afford to run Hoosiers or similar?
-
Yeah, they go off pretty quickly. I ran faster times with bald RA1's than with R888's the same day!
How much are Hoosier Slicks. They are about $175 US, in the US
-
Are you talking true Hoosier slicks or are you talking DOT Hoosiers R compounds?
There was a group buy through Souther Alberta Solo Club earlier this year. It ooks like 205/60R13 were $235 ea.
Hoosier Group Buy (http://sascsolo.ca/forums/index.php?s=1f64ea682b84d5469cc1350a19f1f151&showtopic=191)
Another option I have heard good things about is the Hankook Ventus Z214...Don't know where to buy them here though...
-
The Ventus 214s are only available in the US. I called Hankook Canada.
The cool thing about the RA1s is that they seem to get their best right before they cord and don't seem to have any heat cycling issues. Too bad it is the end of the season as with the dollar being quite strong we should organize a group buy....maybe in the spring Toyo will have new production of the RA1 available too.
A
-
I had a pile of 8 888s at Race City this weekend, ranging from new to bald. I dug out my durometer, and found that they are very much the same hardness from new (44)to almost bald (46), but as soon as the tread sipes disappear, they are rocks (57). I even had a couple that had some siping left on the inside, and bald on the outside- 45 on the treaded half, 57 on the bald half, so number of heat cycles hasn't got much effect.
Information only. Interpretation, I leave to others.
-
Wow! How did you get them to wear away on the outside and have tread left in the middle? I have dropped as low as 22 to 24 lbs cold and they are still wearing more in the middle.
Interesting result with the durometer.
-
Never ran them on the Honda - but they suck on the Mustang and from talking to others, anything else too! I did not have inside/outside wearing issues from 2 race weekends but consistency and predictability went out the door with these tires it seems. First 10 - 15 minutes okay then it becomes a wild, unpredictable, slippery ride after that. RA1's were much more reliable it appears. As Stu put it - more bling but at what cost? Won't buy another set - don't recommend anyone to buy a set unless they give them away - then pass them on to your closest competitor so you can know where he will be.
Car #45 Jon
-
Wow! How did you get them to wear away on the outside and have tread left in the middle? I have dropped as low as 22 to 24 lbs cold and they are still wearing more in the middle.
Interesting result with the durometer.
Not middle, inside. Mine wear in the middle and at the edge of the sidewall where they roll over.
Jon- I have made them very greasy on the Neon by pushing hard. Remember you don't race a Civic anymore!
-
Are you trying to say I don't push it anymore Jim? LOL!!
-
Are you trying to say I don't push it anymore Jim? LOL!!
Just pointing out the spare half a ton or so you're carryin around now, dude. I went the other way- spent 20 years autocrossing an 82 Camaro- sometimes with a blower- I know all about greasy tires.
-
My spare half a ton or so were still in front of you big guy!! LOL! And fun was had by all.
-
not to pick on the spec rx7 guys, but your opinions of tire wear and performance are poorly formed. you have to remember your running tires that should be on 8 inch rims on 5.5inch rims. you would easily double your tread life with some decent size rims. the 888 are a tire that requires more attention to detail. rims, alignment, tire pressure, etc. the spec cars can do little to set up for this.
-
Thanks for the confidence in our abilities. We spend a lot of time and effort on pressure, temp, camber.
You may note that many other people, including the entire Spec Miata series in the US share our opinions.
-
sorry, i wrote that too early. what i meant by that is you have no rear alignment adj at all, you have rims that are 2" to narrow for the tire, etc. the ra1 was better in that it is super forgiving. the 888 is not. it needs to have the set up correct. really correct. my self included... i may actually be at the top of the heap, most amateur racers and autocrossers don't take the kind of time to set up a car for the tires. I'm still not sure i know how to set up a car the right way...lol then, blame tires if it doesn't work. i could throw ra1's on a bone stock 20year old rx7 and they would work. the car would have positive camber and toe in. throw 888's at that car and they would not work at all. we have all been spoiled some what with the ease of use that the ra1 has given us. my opinion. the 888 is a better tire. "if car is set up for them" proper rim sizing and tire for car. they are faster and wear out quicker. thats racing...
-
Hey, I know what you mean...we are very limited with our potential for set-up....yet guys who can do a lot with them still don't like them.
I guess what we don't like most of all is that they seem to go off way faster. As the season went on, we all got better at making them last physically, but as for grip, they just never really worked for us at all. We would all be happy to go back to the RA1, as they have in Spec Miata, but we are a big enough deal to make Toyo bring back our size