Author Topic: WCMA Road Race Classing Review  (Read 80424 times)

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July 18, 2014, 10:04:35 PM
Reply #105

aavery

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i have raced other types of racing, hydroplanes, rally ect in other forms if you didnt have 3 entries the class it was canceled for that weekend, and if there wasnt more then 5 registered with national body the class would be put on probation to be deleted.

there was a step up rule where you could run in the next class up if you didnt have enough entries

winning you class when your the only car in it is a joke, if you dont have 3 cars in you class upgrade or down grade your car to fit another class,

lets face it spec racing seems to be the way things are going

justin best thing you can do is convince other 944 to come out and ie nasa 944 spec racing

out of the 40 cars last weekend   

10 were stu
12 were spec miata
6 challange car

almost 2/3 of the field in 3 classes,  yet we have 30 classes in wcma

« Last Edit: July 18, 2014, 10:08:15 PM by aavery »

July 22, 2014, 09:00:28 AM
Reply #106

JustinL

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winning you class when your the only car in it is a joke, if you dont have 3 cars in you class upgrade or down grade your car to fit another class,

Agreed, but changing classes in a system where displacement determines your class means serious engine work to change class. The other 944 guys have 2.5L+ turbos or LS swaps... making them all GT1 or GTS cars by virtue of displacement.

July 24, 2014, 03:38:31 PM
Reply #107

zhao

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I 95% agree with bought the wrong car, modded ur car wrong, blah blah blah = dont whine about how it doesn't class right and just build a car well to a class it fits in well and a class that is popular, etc if that's what u care about. What I want to race is a formula mazda, but I dont cuz i dont want to race alone. But illogical things happen, and people do jump out of their class into higher classes for no damn reason. Take IT2, it was the largest class a short time ago but now a lot of IT2/it3 cars are sitting in STU cuz a lot of people decided to put on some single mod that doesn't do anything for performance that bumps them out of IT, and are running times slower then IT2/IT3 cars. So what do you do there? Follow them to STU? but that involves dumping a lot more money into the car to make it competitive in STU (now ur cracking engines open and camming it or porting it, or upgrading turbro's). I'll race in IT2 until IT2 has no real field to race against, then i'll do what i need to do to move to another class with a high car count, but i wont race in something with a car taht can't win, cuz imo, thats pointless.

What I like with nasa is the jump to the next higher class can be made with a little hop, rather then the huge leap our rules currently require. discribing it by our current rules, its like going from it2 to it1. instead of IT2 to STU. How NASA rules play out who knows though. might be  more annoying with a lot more class jumping as people move up and down for various reasons. Might be a lot harder to police who belongs in what class too.


September 19, 2014, 11:30:43 AM
Reply #109

JustinL

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I had a great time this year racing with the guys in the 1:27-1:30 lap time range. I think there were 4 or 5 of us right in there having a great time in the GT group. It's just a shame that the 5 of us at the last race were in 3 different classes. I can't make the October meeting, but my vote as usual will be for adoption of the NASA rules or at least some power to weight classing system for the GT group.

September 19, 2014, 11:31:48 AM
Reply #110

Spec Volcanic

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I had a great time this year racing with the guys in the 1:27-1:30 lap time range. I think there were 4 or 5 of us right in there having a great time in the GT group. It's just a shame that the 5 of us at the last race were in 3 different classes. I can't make the October meeting, but my vote as usual will be for adoption of the NASA rules or at least some power to weight classing system for the GT group.

Thanks Justin

September 19, 2014, 02:55:50 PM
Reply #111

SputnikRSS

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We might have to add a change to the Formula Continental rules as well since %75 of the cars run this year where illegal :o

Current rules do not take into account the new Zetec motor that FC cars use only the old Pinto is in the WCMA rules.




September 22, 2014, 12:14:07 AM
Reply #112

Chrisw

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I had a great time this year racing with the guys in the 1:27-1:30 lap time range. I think there were 4 or 5 of us right in there having a great time in the GT group. It's just a shame that the 5 of us at the last race were in 3 different classes. I can't make the October meeting, but my vote as usual will be for adoption of the NASA rules or at least some power to weight classing system for the GT group.

Is that what the plan is? I have sadly moved to Calgary and can no longer attend meetings but it would be nice to vote. I would be is support of the nasa rules as well.

September 23, 2014, 03:43:05 PM
Reply #113

ChrisS

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Can't make it up for the AGM and banquet (http://www.wcma.ca/forum/index.php?topic=731)?  There will be a bunch of us coming up from Calgary.

I anticipate that attracting new competitors will be a major theme of the AGM (the classing rules proposal, licensing proposal, etc) so it would be great to have input from newcomers like yourself!

Chris
Spec Miata #13

September 23, 2014, 08:35:43 PM
Reply #114

GTcalgary

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Switch to NASA rules?  Do it.  Its a start.  Its not just NASA's class rules that make them successful, its their whole business approach. From what I have heard, NASA's growth rate has been so impressive, that the SCCA has been forced to stand up and take notice.  As another forum member pointed out,"...at a recent NASCC/WCMA event, out of the 40 entries, 12 were spec miata, 5 were challenge cars and 10 were STU. Almost 2/3 of the total race registrations in three classes yet WCMA rules have 30 classes."

I just had another browse through the NASA rule set and it provides a single solution to a number of the various challenges our group is facing. As a start and a first step in the right direction, the class rules are clean and tidy and easy for a newcomer and even a spectator to understand. Therefore, its so much more marketable! Brilliant!  NASA's "American Iron, German Touring Series, Honda Challenge, Spec Miata, Performance Touring (catch all sort of like STU), and Super Touring (sort of like our GT)" are easily recognizable to the layman spectator and give hints as to which types of race cars to consider as a newcomer.  Power to Weight is also an easy concept to understand. The standard class decals, easy to follow rules and newcomer license progression are all very welcoming.  Smart.  These are huge factors behind how they are able to grow participation. Once the easy to understand, clear and marketable rules are in place, a marketing effort is required to capitalize on the opportunity.  Simply changing the rules alone won't grow the sport.  Leaving the existing confusing rules the same and continuing to neglect real marketing initiatives definitely won't facilitate any growth.  Re marketing initiatives, who is going to chip in? ARCA? NASCC? CSCC? WCMA? Castrol? Racers? Sponsors? Some from each of them? What portion of the club dues collected and event profits are put back into marketing? The dues are paid by the racers who are asking for growth in order to have more competition. A thousand bucks from each could go a long way if handled by a savvy marketing person. NASA is a for profit business as I understand. I'm sure they allocate a portion of their budget towards marketing.

In order to grow quickly, we need to first address the local demographic and then look forward. NASA rules fill this need for us. For example, Tuners need welcoming and the PT points system allows them to play around and make changes - something they like to do! Also, I'm pretty sure Castrol could easily grow an American Iron class from drag racing onlookers alone. Once Calgary builds a track, German Touring (or maybe Italian Touring!). The good thing about the NASA rules is that we can keep our existing critical mass of long-time local racers and simply grow it from there, as the NASA rules easily accommodate virtually any type of race car.  Fewer classes, more cars to compete against within a class and therefore higher levels of more interesting competition. Imagine, actually having to compete to win a trophy! I know club racing is meant to be fun and all but there seems to be far too much easy plastic handed out.  To the onlooker, there is no real prestige in winning or disappointment in losing (especially when there is only one car competing!). For the most part, spectators don't get the whole thing anyways. The highlight is watching the rare close battles between two cars which may or may not be in the same class.

Quickly re sporting regs, NASA's rules are written with more definite measures and less vagueness than the WCMA document. Clarity and to a certain extent transparency, removes doubt and supports a welcoming, educational and supportive culture rather than pulling rank (which I have observed first hand). Once quality racers are in we have to keep them. 

Being marketable means its easier to grow participation, increase community following and draw greater attention from the public. This increased size of audience allows us to show sponsors value when they ask the question, "how is this going to help me sell more of my product?":

1) The audience needs to be able to relate to the talent of the athletes.

2) There has to be something significant on the line. In other words, the ‘prize’ for winning has to be substantial.

3) You need to have the very best competing at your events.

Re 1) The challenge is that unless you’ve driven a race car, it is hard to “see” Will Power’s talent and relate to it. To the masses – the general public – Will looks the same as Danica going through any given corner. But there is clearly a difference in talent that is hard to appreciate.

Re 2) A monumental prize for the winner, and significant lost opportunity for the loser. The audience needs jubilation driven not just by financial gain, but by the prestige of winning, and they need heartache and disappointment. They need to see success and failure at the highest level.

Re 3) Real competition will bring real talent.

(Thanks to Mazda Motorsports for these important tips!)

Think big. Maybe Castrol can be home to the Mazda Motorsports Development Racing School (Canada) where Mazda supplied caged MX5's are used as student cars! WCMA can run the school with Castrol to make $ together and use it as part of the competition licensing program. Now that you've read that and figured its out of reach, NASA does it with Ford supplied Mustangs at their "Ford Racing School". Time to raise the bar on what can be achieved. I look forward to hearing other ideas on this forum and at the AGM. I'm very happy to see all stakeholders inviting this kind of discussion and being open to change where its likely for the better (not just for the sake of change). Implementing all of the new great ideas will take time and effort and it will be very exciting to see a big surge in race registrations!


September 24, 2014, 07:11:53 AM
Reply #115

Tachyon

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Good morning,

I will  take the liberty to re-post Gary Roberts' & Doug Campbell's, February 2014 review . Please see the next POST after my request to ask the competitors to  seriously review the WCMA car classifications……Gary R & Doug C  prepared an excellent framed layout for the competitor's to set the future tone of the car classifications and the direction competitors would like to see for future car classifications.  Decades ago  SCCA, the original CASC' and WCMA's initial car classifications were new and modern rule sets for the race cars of those eras. Since then  cars in general have changed so very, very much , actually tires, brakes,  and the increase in structural integrity of the unibody cars have had the greatest impact, and then with modern suspension and materials we have all seen the speed, braking and handling of all production based cars  improve an exponential amount.  Production based have changed so very much that it is time for a major overall of  many organizing and sanctioning body's car classifications.  It was not very long ago where a well prepared GT2, GT3 or GT4 purposely built GT race cars  would run easily many circles around the most favoured high performance and often very expensive off the shelf production cars like Corvettes, BMWs , Mustangs and even Porsche &  Ferrari.   However today, cars off the show room floor are often faster and handle equally well or better than the purpose built GT race cars of the past.  Today, production based cars have brakes and suspension that are equal or even better than what the very wealthy could build, find and place  on their GT race cars. At the same time as these other attributes improved we have seen the Hp and torque per litre has increased astronomically.  In my opinion, it is well past the time for new car classifications to be implemented in the Prairie Provinces and 2 territories within WCMA's territory.  Many of you know I have asked for many, many years for us to review the car classifications and to simplify it and reduce the number of classes.  However, each year the participants at the WCMA's AGM race workshop have been more than satisfied with the present car classifications or to make small adjustments, often by adding additional classes. It may be the case again at the 2014 WCMA AGM. Competitors, it is your sport and competition events, in what direction do you want your car classification to go.  I know it is tough, and  I know some of you have very opposing ideas but we have to come to some sort of consensus. Many of you disagree with me and others.  However, Gary Roberts and Doug Campbell put in a considerable amount of time to prepare this excellent review to set the wheels in motion for a new set of rules that are suitable for the modern era of competition cars and to still leave a competitive location for those cars from the previous era. The world has changed.  ( personal comment - Spec classes & power to weight ratios should be the focal point  - but I'm no longer a competitor) .   Competitors,  it is your sport!  Gary Leadbetter , President of WCMA.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2014, 07:38:13 AM by Tachyon »

September 24, 2014, 07:13:44 AM
Reply #116

Tachyon

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REPOST - «


 Reply #2 on: February 18, 2014, 10:48:15 PM »
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WMCA Road Racing Classing Review – Preliminary Report

Authors: Doug Campbell and Gary Roberts

Rationale

Over the past several years the WCMA has received numerous comments regarding the current classing structure both at AGMs and via E-mail. During this time the WCMA has made changes both small and large to the rules, with little effect on the content or number of comments. Key concerns raised include;

Lack of inclusiveness
•   Certain makes and models require a minimum not conducive to racing
•   Certain “common” modifications are not allowed or permitted in “Entry Level” Classes

Do not reflect the current state of motorsports
•   GT Displacements
•   “Tuner Mod’s” are not permitted in “Entry Level” classes

Ability of members to travel or to attract racers from other areas.
•   Majority of class do not match any neighbouring regions

Lack of competiveness
•   Classes allow too great of a disparity between cars to create competition.
•   Too many Classes

While these concerns come with varying degrees of accuracy, it has been many years since the WMCA last did a ground up review of the rules and not just adapted or modified our existing rules.

Mandate

Review current classing rules from all neighboring regions to determine if there is an existing rules set that will meet the need of the WCMA and its members, and could be a suitable replacement of any combination, or all of IT, ST and/or GT.

Criteria

The following criteria will be used to help formulate a recommendation;
•   Must be more inclusive
•   Should not exclude any current competitors
•   Must align with areas that members could visit, or other racers could visit from.
•   Must maintain some level of affordability
•   Should be well suited to  address the issues of Modern Cars and Modifications
•   Must maintain or reduce the number classes
•   Must offer a reasonable competitive balance within classes
•   Must be viable as a long term solution.

Summary of Rules Reviewed

CACC-BC (British Columbia): GT, GTS and IP.
http://www.caccautosport.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/2013-Race-Regs-Final.pdf

CACC-BC runs a rule set with an approach somewhat similar to the WCMA. They Run SCCA GT1,2,3, and L with 3 classes or GTS “catch-alls” (<2.0L, 2-4L and >4.0L). IP cars must meet SCCA IT prep rules, however they are reclassified by displacement (IP3 >1750CC and SM, IP2 1750-2750CC and Pro-3m, IP-1 >2750 CC and ITE, a “catch-all” that allows some additional modification not permitted in other IT classes) and min weight is Manufacturer curb weight – 100lb.
A transition to the CACC-BC rules may be easy, however, they do not meet many of the key criteria, including being more inclusive and not excluding current competitors, and offer little to no upside to the current WCMA classes.

CASC-OR (Ontario): GT http://www.casc.on.ca/sites/default/files/casc_2014_qf_gt.pdf

CASC-OR runs a GT1-6 for sprint races where type of vehicle and level of modification is not a factor in classing. Car classing is a bracket system based solely on lap time; each track has its own lap time for each class, and it is possible to be in a differently class at each track.
This does create classes that run very similar lap times, and is very inclusive, but it does not truly create a competitive balance and is not in the spirit of racing in the WCMA.

CASC-OR (Ontario): GT Challenge  http://www.casc.on.ca/sites/default/files/casc_2014_qg_gtc.pdf

For endurance races the CASC-OR runs “GT Challenge” with Classes of GT, GS, ST1, ST2, ST3 where classes are based solely on power to weight, with no adjustments due to differences in chassis or driveline layout. Classing is wide open with a few exceptions. The rules appear to be more, a set of supplemental regulations for endurance racing, than a complete classing structure.
These classes do again offer a very inclusive structure, with little to no limitations on what can be run. Using solely power to weight does put affordability at risk as all other areas of modification are fully open.  Also included in this review are other rules are primarily based on power to weight but are more complete.

ICSSC (Conference): – Multiple http://www.icscc.com/references/comp_regs_2013_complete.pdf

ICSSC runs many classes, almost all SCCA or catch all’s based on these classes. In some cases confusingly, these classes are listed both as individual classes and rolled up into one catch all (Example rule 1307: “Improved Touring A (ITA), Improved Touring B (ITB), Improved Touring C (ITC), Improved Touring S (ITS). These classes shall run under current year SCCA rules“ and rule 1325: “ITX This class shall run under current ITA, ITB, ITC, & ITS SCCA rules. (Fall 2011)”). There are some Spec classes but they are not included in this review at this time.
ICSSC would offer a nearly unlimited number of classes to pick and choose from, however there is no reason not to go directly to the SCCA for the classes, and the catches all’s do not eliminate any of the WCMA’s issues.

SCCA (Sports Car Club of America):  - GT, ST, and IT

http://scca.cdn.racersites.com/prod/assets/2014%20GCR%20February-mobile1.pdf

The WCMA’s current classing structure is largely based on the SCCA’s GT, ST, and IT rules, on allowed modifications, and members of the WCMA should find the SCCA rules fairly familiar.  The WMCA has not always followed the SCCA’s updates, which have led to some differences, most notably the Single Inlet Restrictor rules in GT. The current issues related to inclusiveness in the WCMA are largely related to the SCCA rules on allowed modifications. The SCCA also has other classes, but most of those are targeted to a specific car or group of cars.
Following the SCCA rules exactly should level the competitive playing field, however without adding more classes, it would only compound the WCMA’s current issue with inclusiveness, and exclude some current competitors, and force GT cars to move to SIR’s.

NASA (National Auto Sport Association): – PT and ST (Performance Touring and Super Touring)
http://www.nasaproracing.com/rules/performance_touring_rules.pdf
http://www.nasaproracing.com/rules/Super-Touring.pdf

NASA’s PT and ST classes are designed to work together where, if desired, a competitor can progress their car slowly up through PT into ST.
PT (PTB-F) works by starting cars off in a base class with some “free” modifications, and allowing other modifications by claiming points which, as they are accumulated, move cars up to a higher PT class and eventually into ST classes. This points system, while a little complex, does allow cars to run with a wide variety of modifications, and ensures all cars can have a home in PT.  NASA has as minimum adjusted Power to weight for each class to help ensure competitive balance.
ST (ST1, ST2, ST3 and SU) classes are based power to weight ratios (higher then PT) with some adjustment. ST1-3 cars can maintain a relatively stock chassis (Frame rails, Floor pan, etc), or with an adjustment to the power to weight chassis can be modified or a full tube frame, SU is a truly unlimited class (excluding safety)
PT Example - 92-95 stock (less safety equipment) Civic weighing 2390lb on RA-1’s is in PTF, but if that same car was to upgrade Swaybars , header, exhaust, remove the cat, and add coilovers and run A6’s, it would be in PTE.
Like the SCCA, NASA also offers many other classes targeted to one car or one group of cars. (eg: Spec BMW E30 and German Touring Series) We would not recommend adopting these other classes unless competitor numbers were sufficient.


Conclusion

While some regions rule sets offer a solution to some of the WCMA’s concerns.  NASA with PT and ST is the only one to offer a suitable alterative to the current WMCA IT, ST, and GT classes that meets 100% of the criteria.
•   Must be more inclusive
o   Every car regardless of modification has a place to race.
•   Should not exclude any current competitors
o   All WCMA IT and many ST cars will find a competitive home in PT, and the balance in ST. All GT cars should find the same in ST.
•   Must align with area that members could visit, or other racers could visit from.
o   NASA runs races across the US including the NE. NASA cars should also be able to run in the CASC-OR and ICSSC, and, any CACC-BC, CASC-OR, ICSSC, or SCCA could run in the WCMA
•   Must maintain some level of affordability
o   PT maintains entry level affordability and allows development of the car over time.
•   Should be well suited to  address the issues of Modern Cars and Modifications
o   Both PT and ST allow modern cars and modifications.
•   Must maintain or reduce the number classes
o   The number of classes is reduced from 11 to 9
•   Must offer a reasonable competitive balance within classes
o   Statistically, the large number of cars and competitors running NASA rules, ensures a reasonable calculation of competitive balance within classes
•   Must be viable as a long term solution.
o   NASA is a strong organization that regularly updates and maintains their rules. There is no reason to expect this to change in the near future, and that these rules should be viable for years to come.

Recommendation

That the WCMA replace IT, ST and GT class rules with a reference to NASA’s PT and ST in the same format, as we have done with Spec Miata, for the 2015 Race Season.

Next Steps

1)   That the WCMA publicly announce this review and its’ conclusion, to all members and competitors via the Web forums. 
2)   Provide a period for members and competitors to provide written comments or concerns for review and consideration. This period should be not less than 6 weeks but should be completed no later than May 1st
3)   The WCMA Tech committee (lead by Gary Roberts and Doug Campbell) to review all submissions for consideration, and review. This period should be not less than 6 weeks or more than 8 but should be completed no later than July 1st
4)   Gary Roberts and Doug Campbell to submit a final recommendation to the WCMA upon completion of the review within 2-4 weeks (Based on the outcome of the review, the final recommendation will recommend the immediate announcement of change to the rules for 2015, or if after the submissions and input of the tech committee, a clear conclusion could not be reached, the announcement of PENDING change in the rules for 2015, to be finalized at the AGM)
5)   That the WCMA publicly announce the final review and its’ conclusion
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October 05, 2014, 10:49:32 PM
Reply #117

jcm0791

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A rules change is not going to be a magic bullet to cure the biggest problem right now:  too few cars spread across too many classes.  It could help by easing some of the complication new and potential racers experience when trying to prepare their cars.  At the same time, many existing racers may disappear because their cars (carefully prepared to fit neatly into existing rules) are suddenly not competitive in their class ... Either because they have moved or something else has been moved into their class.  Example: Since the SCCA changed the GT2 class allowances, it is the Porsche GT3's and Corvettes (I think) that dominate and the tube frame cars are non-competitive.

This is not all bad, but one does need to look at how many cars that used to run in Calgary vanished (Or Edmonton International Speedway before that).  Some may have been sold into the U.S. but many of the obscurely prepared cars don't so easily find a home there (I am thinking of the Modified Production cars here.  Neat cars, but limited international usefulness)

People stop racing for many reasons ... and sometimes they come back, sometimes the cars come back... Rules can't fix everything that makes that happen or not happen.

I agree that the new blood will come from many sources but the best bet is the tuners and the drifters.  For are these not the modern equivalents of the gear heads and street hooligans of the previous generations (I.E. My generation)?

October 06, 2014, 07:22:27 AM
Reply #118

ChrisS

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A rules change is not going to be a magic bullet to cure the biggest problem right now:  too few cars spread across too many classes.

That's actually one of the things I like about the NASA style of prep rules; they allow easier class mobility, which lets competitors address your second point.  Are you continually running in a class of one?  Add or remove some mods or weight so you can move to a class with people in it.

one does need to look at how many cars that used to run in Calgary vanished

That's a very good question; where have they gone?

Chris
Spec Miata #13

October 07, 2014, 05:19:12 PM
Reply #119

10cc

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Whether we like it or not, whether it is justified or not, the reputation of Castrol Raceway road course has a lot to do with car count. It is our job to spread the word that the track now is much different from June of 2013.

The adoption of NASA rules does carry with it the possibility of losing cars due to the nature of the classification. If we did not have CC class, which I believe will stay regardless, my old RX-7 would be hopelessly out-classed where it would fit, without extensive and allowable upgrades. The problem is that the upgrades would cost a lot more money than I am prepared to spend, so, as I couldn't afford a different car, I'd just be out of luck and probably off the track. It is highly unlikely that I would de-tune the car to go slower.

I have not seen any empirical evidence to show it is in fact the tuners that are our source of new cars. Lots of guys in other disciplines want to stay where they are, and do not see road racing as an automatic upgrade in their motorsport careers.

Just some thoughts. I intend to listen very carefully at the AGM, and do some reading before the meeting.
G. Brooke Carter
#10 ST5
ARCA Race Director