ITGT and GTS classes -Is it time for a change

[gary]

how about this.
currently there is only one IT3 car on the grid and i feel it is incorrectly classed .   when i bought the white corolla that Dave M now has it had IT3 class on it. because the car came from BC. Their rules are different? why? 
The current goal was to clarify classes and to reduce classes for timing/scoring.
suggestion; move all cars down a class, IT2 cars now are IT3,  IT1 cars are now IT2. etc.
now get rid if the ITGT class.
we can use some formula or prep point system for modified cars to move up one class.
cars that start in the IT1 class are not allowed any mods  as they are already fast enough . if they must modify they can go to GT classes and add the extra safety equip that concerns the current group of fast cars.
Again I think a formula to better classify the cars is also needed, similar to the  GT displacement and weight calculations.

Gary

[CRXsi]

Gary actually has a pretty decent idea here...Many peoples reason for going to ITGT was they wanted some modification but were unable to and stay in IT, maybe allowing IT1 to be the fast class and only allow limited mods with a weight formula is a good idea...this would also allow for the new breed of fast cars from the factory to have a place to play...
Should we maybe look at the CACC rules to get an idea how they class as they do seem to work.

NASA does have the Honda Challenge, SCCA not so much. Honda Challenge is kinda like CC class with a few classes within the series, they also have their own track time separate from non-Honda's so the concept likely wouldn't work too well if all cars were factored in, but good thought.

[CRXsi]

From the CACC rule book:

18 IMPROVED PRODUCTION

18.1 Definition
Improved Production is intended to provide a place for newer models of vehicles to race
with minimal preparation other than the installation of standard safety equipment. In
addition the cars shall conform to commonly recognized preparation rules to allow
participation in events governed by other sanctioning bodies.
18.2 Rule Compliance
A. All vehicles must comply with the relevant regulations contained within this
CACC rulebook, as well as any applicable regulations that may be in the
current competition year ASN Sporting Code.
B. Regulations for the preparation of cars competing in this class shall be those
published for the current competition year by the Sports Car Club of
America for Improved Touring IT category in the GCR?s. The regulations
shall not include the addendums published in FastTrack during the current
competition year.
C. When a conflict exists between the CACC and SCCA rules the CACC
requirements shall be considered the requirement.
D. Production cars will normally be only those cars that are series produced for
North America in quantities of at least 2000 per model sold.
E. Competitors shall have available at all times, a copy of the manufacturer?s
workshop manual and/or official specifications for the vehicle entered.
F. The onus is at all times upon the competitor to ensure the eligibility of their
car. On the other hand a protest against a car, that is for example, based on
the absence of a valve cap or a cigar lighter, will be deemed vexatious.
G. Under unusual circumstances, it may be reasonable to permit a competitor to
deviate from an official specification provided such variance would clearly
be of no consequence to either the safety or performance of the affected
vehicle. Permission may only be granted by the Chief Steward in
consultation with the chief Scrutineer. All variances must be noted in the
vehicle logbook and designated ?permanent? or ?temporary?.

18.4 Classification
A. Improved Production will be divided into five classes as follows:
IP4 - vehicles with engine displacement up to 1500 cc and OEM Throttle Body
injection
IP3 - vehicles with engine displacement up to 1750 cc. Also, any ?Spec Miata?
as defined by SCCA.
IP2 - vehicles with engine displacement of 1751 cc to 2750 cc
IP1 - vehicles with engine displacement of 2751 cc and up
IPA ? North American built autos of the following models:
- Ford Mustangs & Capris 1979-1993
- GM Camaros & Firebirds 1982-1992
- Ford Taurus & Merkur 1979-1992 (SHO V6)
- Chevrolet Cavalier 1985-1988 (Z24 V6)
- Ford Thunderbird (Turbo) 1986-1988
All IPA events will participate in the same run group as IP1.
All naturally aspirated Wankel engines will run in IP2.
All forced induction vehicles will run in IP1.
B. Vehicle minimum weight will be the curb weight published by the manufacturer
for that make and model, less an allowance of 100 pounds. Weights will be taken
as raced, including driver, and without replenishment of fluids. Ballasting of cars
is permitted provided that the location and mounting constraints shall conform to
SCCA GCR regulations for Improved Touring.

All the rules can be found here:

CACC Race Regs

[CRXsi]

18.6 Permitted Modifications
A. In addition to the modifications provided for in the SCCA Improved Touring
preparation rules the following are also permitted for CACC IP only events:
1. The vehicle?s original brakes may be only be modified as follows:
i. Brake calipers, rotors, hubs and hoses are unrestricted, provided that the
brake components are attached at the manufacturer?s original mounting
points and that no modifications to the original mounting points are made.
Brake rotors may only be of a ferrous material.
ii. Brake linings may be replaced by any other of unrestricted origin.
iii. Any brake cooling method may be used. No modifications to the original
bodywork are permitted, except that bumper grilles may be removed and
existing openings may be utilized.
iv. Any brake proportioning valve may be used.
2. Shock absorbers may be replaced provided they attach to the original mounting
points. The number & type (e.g. tube, lever, etc) of shock absorbers shall remain
the same as stock.
3. Wheels may be replaced with others of unrestricted origin providing the
requirements for body clearance are met. Wheel size is limited to a maximum
increase or decrease in diameter of 2? from original equipment.
4. Turbochargers that are fitted as original equipment may be modified by
replacement of the compressor and/or turbine housings and/or wheels, but the
centre bearing housing may not be substituted. Superchargers may be modified
by the substitution of drive pulleys and/or belts, but the internal components and
the housings may not be modified or replaced.

Appears these are the only modifications that can can be completed.

Basically their rules are very close to our IT rules with a little different classing...maybe this could work better for us as well except it doesn't really allow for some of the mods people have done to be in ITGT. This would alleviate the BMW M3, Integra Type R, Corvette ZR1 type issues however...

[CRXsi]

As if I haven't posted enough reference material...here is a link for the SCCA IT rules which ours are created from to allow for fewer classes...

SCCA IT Rules

[gary]

As if I haven't posted enough reference material...

Gord, go back to work.

Gary

[CRXsi]

I'm still on holidays for another 3 days...then 2 weeks of work, then 6 months off playing daddy day care! So get used to it! (

[Super70Dave]

The only problem with doing that is we still don't have a place for the turbo/supercharged cars out there.
Ie: Brando Choy's civic or perhaps the NSX-R decides to run IT-GT-when it's running (Sorry Kev)
I personally built my car with the hope that it would be recognized as a japanese version or european version of the car, and fit into IT1 eventually so i'm in if we slot everyone back a class or adjust hp/weights accordingly.
We need a really simple solution that makes timing and scoring easy and still promotes close racing.

I agree that we may need to conform more with the rest of the world.

[CRXsi]

It looks like many SCCA regions have a catch all ITE category for what you are talking about Dave, kinda similar to our ITGT...

CaliforniaSCCA ITE Rules

[Super70Dave]

Thanks gord. You really have more time than us.

However the still key goal was to keep the class sizes small for timing and scoring. SO were back to what to do.

Is there a way to start a POLL on this forum. Put all the ideas and start a POLL

[irmechanic]

You'll notice Gord, that SCCA runs 5 groups at least of IT.  We only have 4 - go figure!

[CRXsi]

The only reason I posted IT rules from SCCA was so we could see how our rules were structured similarly, with the exception that due to our car counts we made less classes. The same issue does apply with CACC rules even though they are slightly different again. I agree that they don't meet all our needs and that is why fresh ideas could be a good thing. I still think however that there needs to be some similarity to encourage cross region travel with less classing head aches. This doesn't mean we have to conform 100%just enough that minimal changes would be needed.

Keep the ideas coming and they can be discussed at the AGM

[Al36rx7]

If we take the approach of the IPA or ITE....Really this is just another IT-GT with a different name.  I think we need a place for the IT-GT cars.  The question about classing comes down to safety as much as anything.  Personally, I feel any car that can put in consistent laps below a predetermined time should have the same safety requirements as a GT car. IE fuel cell.  This as much safety for the driver of the ITGT car as the others around them.  And if the ITGT car is below the same preset lap time, maybe they should be classed into the GT side of things.  Whether this happens or not, I will still be having some great races with these same ITGT folks....

In the idea of creating fewer classes, I think time slots could work.  We would have a number of issues to work through.  I also think this will lead to more non traditional class conforming cars.  Unable to fit into a class if one decides to travel outside of WCMA juristiction.  Realistically, we wouldn't be racing against any new cars.  I would still be racing against the same competitors....but this will also lead to some cars split to different classes that are now in same class.  The only real downside to time slots would be trying to overtake a car in the corners that can pull 20 car lengths on you down the front straight.  Both cars run lap times within 1 second....Just things to think about.

How would we handle someone that comes out, and for some reason that weekend they are in the zone, achieve results they have never seen before, and then the next time they come out they are back to where they were before??

I know I have been talking in circles, but I see this as more of an information - idea topic.

Cheers...Enjoy the snow this weekend

[Domo]

My car is currently an ITGT car because of its engine swap. Before I started racing I tried to turn my car into its european and japanese cousin. So I could provide a factory manual for the car with the correct engine, it just might not be in english. So if my car could be considered a 93 civic SIR instead of what it used to be a 93 civic Si and put back into IT1 or IT2 I would do it in a heartbeat. So my point is some of us have cars that are mirror images of european or japanese cars and I think it would be great if we could add these cars to IT even though they are not offered in this country.

[vintagebmw]

If we take the approach of the IPA or ITE....Really this is just another IT-GT with a different name.  I think we need a place for the IT-GT cars.  The question about classing comes down to safety as much as anything.  Personally, I feel any car that can put in consistent laps below a predetermined time should have the same safety requirements as a GT car. IE fuel cell.  This as much safety for the driver of the ITGT car as the others around them.  And if the ITGT car is below the same preset lap time, maybe they should be classed into the GT side of things.  Whether this happens or not, I will still be having some great races with these same ITGT folks....

In the idea of creating fewer classes, I think time slots could work.  We would have a number of issues to work through.  I also think this will lead to more non traditional class conforming cars.  Unable to fit into a class if one decides to travel outside of WCMA juristiction.  Realistically, we wouldn't be racing against any new cars.  I would still be racing against the same competitors....but this will also lead to some cars split to different classes that are now in same class.  The only real downside to time slots would be trying to overtake a car in the corners that can pull 20 car lengths on you down the front straight.  Both cars run lap times within 1 second....Just things to think about.

How would we handle someone that comes out, and for some reason that weekend they are in the zone, achieve results they have never seen before, and then the next time they come out they are back to where they were before??

I know I have been talking in circles, but I see this as more of an information - idea topic.

Cheers...Enjoy the snow this weekend

Let me be the first to suggest that Mr. Brown's car get moved to GT2 to make some more room for ITGT cars in GT3

Anthony