Spec Miata

[rjv]

I'm interested in running SM as well.

[SpecCanuck]

We've enjoyed racing in the IT3 class this year at Gimli but look forward to racing other SM next year.
It's a great class for the wealth of knowledge available online and to be able to travel south and fit in a popular class.
And I should add, now out west.

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[Icedawg]

One of the challenges set by the WCMA Tech comm is for the Spec Miata aficionados to select the rules they wish to run under.  I have not seen much discussion of rules yet on this thread.  I suggest one of you split the thread into a new one on the rules alone, but I leave it up to all of you, in case it seems confusing to add a second thread in this forum category.

I have heard it said the rules of different regions of SCCA are not the same as SCCA Nationals, and that NASA's differ too.  A brief search suggests these differences are narrowing.  Here is a link to a Spring 2012 post on Mazdaracers.com by a west coast NASA guy, quoted below.  If the main difference is indeed tires at this stage, that should make it pretty easy to select a source of rules, since it won't really matter much.  Keep in mind we need to select a spec tire based on what is easily available in western Canada.

I read the web posted NASA 2012 and SCCA GCR rules, and could not discern a substantive difference, but SCCA is more verbose, and goes into the details more specifically, presumably to reduce the chance of more than one interpretation.  (There could be something more subtle, our CC regs are so simple I am not experienced with complicated rule statements, since I can ignore the rest of the WCMA rules  for other classes as a driver in CC.)

Link is http://mazdaracers.com/topic/1831-2012-nasa-sm-rules-published/
From John Mueller
Anyway, it's finally up:http://www.nasaprora...miata_rules.pdf (link to above to get this one to work)
•   The high points are both organizations have the same weights & plates!
•   NASA has also followed SCCA on the overbore rule and added the 1.6 Mazdaspeed (Cusco) diff.
•   There may be some minor differences like: NASA remaining on Toyo RA1's and still allowing 1.6 steering rack shimming (has anyone tried it?) but there shouldn't be much more.
•   I hope to add Appendix D that will include a shock testing procedure and spec (hopefully the same as SCCA) by the end of April 2012. Note I said 'hope to'.

[GTcalgary]

Thanks for adding to the discussion.

One of the main draws to Spec Miata is the "portability" of the cars/ruleset to nearby tracks in the USA without having to change anything on the car.  At the Edmonton information session, this point was re-emphasized by participants. The consensus was to stick with the ICSCC ruleset which is based on the SCCA GCR. http://www.scca.com/assets/2012GCR-updatedNovember.pdf The only changes the ICSCC made were tires (can use the previous year's Spec Tire), and the Club Spec Miata (which we don't intend to run here).

NASA is indeed coming to the pacific Northwest in 2013 but the ICSCC is the established organization and likely where most of the competitors will be in 2013.  NASA runs events at Miller and thankfully the SCCA rules are virtually identical to the SCCA now so again no major changes to the car should be necessary if some of us want to head down to an event at Miller once in a very long while.

Part of the benefit of choosing an exiting Spec Class is that we don't have to reinvent the wheel (ever).  This way we can just copy and paste the rules from eg. the SCCA as a single line item into the WCMA ruleset.  This is what the ICSCC does which more or less says "For Spec Miata use the current SCCA rules". 

Regarding tires.  Spec Miata was run on the Toyo RA-1 for the longest time and then went to the R888 under Toyo's direction.  Everyone hated the R888's so Toyo went back to making the RA-1 and again used it as the spec tire.  The RA-1 is now phasing out yet again and Toyo is making a new spec tire called the RR.  I think because of all this flip-flopping and other headaches with Toyo, the SCCA National guys decided to heck with it and went over to Hoosier where there is also excellent trackside support in the US. Most of the racers were shaving the RA-1's anyways which added extra cost ($60/tire).  The current SCCA National Tire is the Hooiser SM6 for dry conditions and the Hoosier H20 for wet conditions. The SM6's ($166/tire) cost the same as the RA-1's and you don't have to shave them - ready to run as-is similiar to an R6.  The H20's provide better grip than any other wet tire available so perhaps for consistency of supplier and safety, they decided on the H20.  It could be dangerous to allow a different wet tire since the grip levels could be substantially different. Keeping the exact same "Spec" tire requirement means competitors need to leave less buffer zone to accomodate for performance differentials and is what makes racing Spec Miatas so much fun - the intense tight traffic. Again, so that we don't have to change tires to run at Spokane with the ICSCC, we should stick with the National Spec tires, the Hoosier SM6 and H20.

Today is Calgary's info session.  I've already spoken to many of the guys and although they had once been thinking of possibly a different regional tire, once they heard about the RA-1 situation, the price of the Hoosiers and not having to change tires when travelling, they all seem to want to go with the Hoosier solution.  Existing RA-1's (like I have) or other tires can be burned off at Track Days, Time Attack, Autocrosses etc. 205/50 15 is also a popular size if someone wants to sell them off.

In summary, at this stage of the game, I think its safe to say we will use the same rules as our immediate neighbors to the south, that is the National SCCA rules without the tire exception. As for tires, the Hoosier SM6 and H20 are readily available through our typical local race tire providers, G&G in Leduc and Spec R (Kyle Ho) in Calgary. A group buy of some kind is likely in order.  In addition, Shawn Bishop at Rallysport already has a relationship with Team Dynamics wheels becuase of Rally and it happens to be the most popular wheel choice in Spec Miata due to its weight, strength and design for close wheel to wheel contact. 

Where I would like some clarification and feedback from the tech committee isn't so much on the Spec rules but rather regarding safety prep.  For example, are SCCA cage, window nets and other safety equipment acceptable to the WCMA?  Can racers building or buying to NASA or SCCA safety standards, be comfortable that there are no conflicts between the rulesets?  I used the National SCCA rules to prep my car for sake of portability to US events and the car passed tech inspection and was logbooked in both the ICSCC and the WCMA so it seems there is no issue build to National SCCA specs. Thanks.

[super70dave]

Tires:
Going with the DOT hoosier is indeed an option, However most of us in WCMA, who were running at racecity and gimli probably would never choose to run them just for wear.
The toyo's last for ever.
Note: Alot of IT guys in Gimli have gone to using the Falken 615k in 205/50r15, they are buying them used from the Formula Vee guys and getting whole seasons out of them.
I know using these tires may change your ability to travel, and be competitive.
I would suggest for your innagural season in WCMA allowing several tire choices and making a decision at end of year, mostly so you can decide on best tire for the tracks you run on most and wear of tire.
Spec racing is supposed to be cheap, hoosier are cheaper but the wear may not equal the benefits.

Saftey and Prep.
There should be no issue on safety and prep of cars. Our rules very closely mimic SCCA, there are minor changes happening this year to our rule set to bring them back inline with new SCCA safety rules that came out Sept 19th.

Dave

[10cc]

Just a thought...the CC cars, among others, have taken advantage of a deal with Toyo that gives us up to 40% off retail. taking a $250.00 retail tire down to $150.00. For CC cars, that means the R888, which didn't work so well for us at RCMP, but worked quite well at the Indy track in Edmonton.

[GTcalgary]

Thanks Dave. Appreciate your thoughts and your contribution. The info on safety will put buyers' and builders' minds at ease.  Thanks also Brooke for that very good  idea. 

As much as allowing several tire choices might seem to help at first, in our group discussions we felt it would better serve the SM competitors to stay completely Spec, even in our first year, when considering the bigger picture. This from some of our knowledgeable and still budget conscious group.

From the Calgary session last night, there was unamimous support for using the ICSCC/National SCCA rules and again for going straight to the Hoosiers.  I guess they seem cheap enough. The Hoosier's may also be the most readily accessible tire versus people from across the region trying to make one-off deals.  Together, a group buy is more likely and perhaps generally better for receiving support/sponsorship from Hoosier. If we plan to go to the US next year to hedge our bets on Castrol, we'll need the Hoosiers.

I'll wait for SM participants to chime in here.  I know some of them were still having difficulties registering on the forum...

Update on total interest:
The good news is that so far, it looks like we'll have a solid half a dozen or so guys ready to go for next season assuming of course we do still have at least the south loop to run on at Castrol.  I have a list of competitors' names and their status. Hearing positive updates about Castrol (as recently provided for example by "MRRACING" Mike E on the Straightpipe forum) does help tremendously in terms of fence sitters and total numbers.  For example, under the assumption that the full course is ready to go the following year, we see participation of closer to a dozen competitors as there are around two dozen competitors so far that have shown strong interest. 

With a full track, we might have the opportunity to have SM racers from the ICSCC (with the same tires) come up to join us for a big 3-day invitational weekend event.  Also, as one NASCC member mentioned at the Awards dinner, it would be great to have the Indy event (less of course the Indy cars) at Castrol.  I heard there will be seating for 500 facing the road course. 

Another suggestion is that the SM guys would probably be interested in running an endurance style event.  This helps to justify and average down towing costs which are becoming substantial. (Perhaps this goes for all car classes?)  6+ hours at Gimli anyone?  I could see putting on a used set of higher treadwear Falkens (or possibly 888's) for that...

[rjv]

Gerard; Thanks for setting up the meeting on Monday. I would also support using SCCA rules for SM. There are more tracks in NW  USA using SCCA rules, so this would make it easier to run there. As far as tires, the new SM tires from Toyo and Hoosier are very similar. The Toyo RR is a 40 UTG, 2 groove tire that looks like the Hoosier, so there should not be much difference in wear. Hoosier never seems to have problems with availability of any tire.

[Edouardk]

Ditto on SCCA rules. Does anyone have any sources citing longevity of RR's vs. SM6's ? One plus the RA1's have going for them is the ability to run as a wet and switch them to dry's once worn down enough. Are RA1's being fazed out in favour of the RR's?

[Al36rx7]

In regards of DOT Hoosier R3 vs RA1.  Once the RA1 is shaved down, there really is no noticeable difference based on experience from years ago.  It just takes many hours of use to get the RA1 to wear down to the Hoosier level.  Last time I ran DOT Hoosiers, the tires started to go of due to so many heat cycles, not having any rubber left.

It's pretty early in the game here to eliminate one or the other.

[GTcalgary]

Here are the numbers so far from guys who have responded:

Have a Spec Miata (or very easily converted) & ready to race in 2013:  6
Interested and shopping for a used Spec Miata: 9
Building their own from scratch: 3
Others: ~6
I'm sure more folks will chime in once they figure out how to hack the forum and get a login and password.

Just curious. Are any of the Challenge Car guys considering trading in their man-card-approved gritty RX7's for a Spec Miata?  I only saw a handful of CC cars out last year but I know there are more out there. Perhaps some are looking for an "upgrade"? So far I haven't included anyone in the count.  With 6+ Spec Miatas out there and growing, championship points are going to be easier to come by!

Reminder; If you don't mind getting the odd scratch and dent, Spec Miatas are eligible to run in "Exempt Class" or "EC" in Chumpcar events.  Also reminder that the cars are a lot of fun at tighter Time Attack tracks like Stratotech and can even run at close to the fastest RAW times in Autocross.  There are a good 6 guys from the list above that also run their cars (not all Spec Miatas yet) in Time Attack and Autocross.

[10cc]

Much as I respect the spec Miata, and all it can do for racing, you'll be pulling my old, crippled and possibly lifeless body out of my RX-7 before you can get me to switch. I have driven a couple of spec Miatas, and find them very small and uncomfortable for my long body, and for the most part, the CC cars are faster than a true Spec Miata...not so much so for the turbo versions.

That said, I am all for the formation of the class....but I don't know if I'd get my hopes up for races of just  Miata's, due to scheduling issues. The class will bring in new racers, and keep some older ones in the hunt. Makes for more fun on the track, especially in the King of the Road series, that has no classes.

As far as Championship points go, both the NASCC/ARCA Overall Road Course Championship, as well as the WCMA Overall Regional Road Course Championship went to CC cars...in a class of 4 cars. . These CC cars are true warriors

[GTcalgary]

Well of course Brooke. I guess I was thinking of the inactive CC guys who are also possibly less manly than you.   Cage design and seat position make a huge difference in such a small car.  I'm 6'2 210 and fit just fine; very comfortable driving position. I have the "Miatacage" which seems to optimize space based on its 4th revision design.  I've heard up to 6'4 300 can fit no problem if the cage and seat are done properly.  When I first started thinking about Spec Miata two or three years ago, I did try to fit into a short friend of mine's caged miata and couldn't even get into the seat!  By the way for those building or refreshing, Shawn Bishop at Rallysport is now set up to deal anything available on the miatacage website.

I don't think anyone is expecting our own specific track time/run group. At a minimum, IT2, IT3, ITJ cars would have the same ballpark laptimes.  For the first season at Castrol and since it may be just the south loop, maybe the car count has to be kept lower per session for safety?  I'm not sure how that works for a King of the Road Race.  I'm a Newbie but aren't total points partly based on how many other cars are in the same class when you win (depending on the race)?

I know its off-season so its difficult but I'm still looking forward to more Spec Miata participants chiming in on this forum in order to show our numbers and for tire choice consensus beyond those who attended the info sessions.  It would be good to get the go-ahead on the "official" class approval sooner than later to help fence sitters and so that there is still plenty of time to build before next spring.  It takes the average guy working 3 hours a night and every weekend about 24 weeks to build a car.  Once the class is "officially" approved, our group will still have time to work on tire choice.

While on the topic of tires, it looks like if we want to take in the occasional track day with the brand new for 2013, NASA Pacific Northwest region, we still need to use RA-1's according to their rules. NASA's tentative schedule is now posted. http://mazdaracers.com/topic/2961-new-nasa-northwest-region-for-2013/ This of course is a big deal to the existing and well run ICSCC so they will likely be stepping up their efforts to run a great 2013 season.  Check out the ICSCC forum for the discussion.

Personally therefore, it looks like I'll keep the two sets of RA'1s I used last year for possible NASA events and get a third and fourth set of wheels and tires so I can run Hoosiers with the ICSCC (the more established entity for road racing in the PNW.  ICSCC no longer allows RA-1's for SM). I'm also looking forward to the Hoosiers being faster so I can catch the super quick ICSCC SM racers (I couldn't on Toyo's last year - not even the slowest one!), get better Time Attack laptimes at Stratotech and be more competitive with all of the A6 tire users in Autocross.  You'll notice in the ICSCC discussions the importance they place on HPDE, Time Attack (TT) and Autocross events as feedstock to bring new racers over to wheel to wheel.  Apparently this is something that NASA does very well and is partly why the ICSCC is worried.  Thanks again for everyone's comments, guidance and input.

[GTcalgary]

ICSCC tentative schedule http://www.icscc.com/forums/showthread.php?2475-2013-ICSCC-Tentative-Race-Schedule

[10cc]

Cool, I can see that there had to be redesign of the cages, and the cars I drove at Race City were older versions.

As far as prep goes, my guess is that folks should start building now, as the class is sure to become official, and if not right away, then the cars can run in IT until they are classed. Personally, I see this as a really good idea, and I expect WCMA will as well.

KoR races are for the KoR Championship, but the points also count towards the NASCC/ARCA Overall Provincial Championship as well.