ITGT and GTS classes -Is it time for a change

[CRXsi]

The old fart is not mistaken,

ITGT and GTS were not trophy classes when they were first created. If we return it that way it will simplify things...

However there are a few areas that would create an issue...what about someone showing up with a Corvette Z06 or Ford GT o some of the newer wonder cars. A Z06 in stock trim driven by a competent driver can turn 1:20's...what do we do regarding the safety aspect of these such cars as they become more affordable?

As well the rules do state that vehicles must be of North American production run and there must have been X number in production so that kind of rules out Euro and JDM spec cars right from the get go...what do we do if someone wants to race a RHD skyline or something similar? Or do we turn them away based on the fact that it was not a North American sold vehicle?

****EDIT***

I have not been able to find in the rules yet where non North American Production Cars are not allowed...but I am certain I have read it before?

[CRXsi]

From SCCA rules:

9.1.3. IMPROVED TOURING CATEGORY

A.       PURPOSE
Improved Touring classes are intended to provide the membership with the
opportunity to compete in low cost cars with limited modifications, suit-
able for racing competition. To that end, cars will be models, as offered
for sale in the United States. They will be prepared to manufacturer?s
specifications except for modifications permitted by these rules.

I was sure that at one time our rules had a similar section but Said North America instead of United States

[Super70Dave]

Do we really want to turn away cars because we don't have a place for them to race. That seems counter productive.
That's what the class is for.
So we have people purpose building cars for the class? I didn't I'm not sure anyone in the class actually built it for the class we just ended up there.
OK so now from the last couple posts i see the problem as IT-GT guys don't want to run GT specs for cost reasons and competive reasons so were back to making a recognized home for them.
Ie more classes or even a separate scoring system within the class for IT-GT competitors, ie two scoring rates 140 to 130 cars and 120-130 cars. Without creating another class.
Modify the IT-GT rules to make the car make the safety requirments by the next year as directed by the WCMA steward on a case by case basis.

Really this has all been said in other posts and no consensus yet? I think everytime someone posts something i think of another idea.

[Al36rx7]

Hey Anthony...I will move to GT2 if you bring that beemer along too!!  LOL...

Anyway...now that I am unfortunately back in Calgary (sunny California was much better).  I agree.  We don't have the huge car counts to be able to turn people away.   What would happen if we alienate and loose 1/2 of the ITGT class?   I don't think this is an option.  We need their entry fees to help pay the bills.

Current IT rules are based on the SCCA rules.  I believe we made a minor update to the WCMA rules this spring, so there is a possibility the WCMA rules are slightly behind, but this will be isolated cases.  Most of the SCCA regions have added an ITE class.  However, SCCA does not recognize this under the national SCCA rules.  The ITE is left up to the various regions under SCCA whether they want to add a faster class that their ITS, which basically is our IT1.

Personally, I think we need the ITGT class, but the GTS class should fit into GT1 to GT5.  Work through the formulas and place the car in the appropriate class.  Obviously there is the necessary safety equipment in place already.  If we have a V8 powered RX7...big deal...run the numbers and place it in the correct class.  And if some of the these cars want to run ITGT, but are running lap times comparable to the average GT3 then they should be required to have the same safety stuff as the GT guys.

So...My vote is keep ITGT, but add safety equipment based on a preset lap time.  Force the GTS folks to fit into a GT class.  (Sorry..)  I feel this is an easy change.

[CRXsi]

I would be happy with Allen's idea as I agree we don't want to turn cars away but we do need to encourage the safety aspect....I also don't disagree with the GTS comment...

Now what about the original GTS/ ITGT classes not being trophy classes? How does this become policed? All the cars in ITGT are so varying in times...how can one be compared to another for points? A car running sub 1:26's is hardly competitive with a car running 1:29's or low low 1:30's...if the slower cars want to be competitive to the faster ones they need to modify and then they also become closer to the time issue for safety...

[Racer41]

WOW!! What a lot of comments. Made for great reading.
As Gary noted in one of his notes, we had a car in IT3 that should have been with IT2. The vehicle was competitive with IT2 all weekend. I sure had a great time racing.
My two cents.
I would like to do some features to increase safety, the big one being a fuel cell. I raced for five years on the oval and we HAD to have a fuel cell in the race car. The idea of having a stock gas tank for racing, to me, just isn't very safe. I have read the rules and if I am correct, putting the fuel cell in makes me move up a class. (maybe I'm wrong) But if I want to increase safety, I have to move up.
I have a blast racing with guys & gals in my class and want to stay there.
More food for thought.
David
#46

[Al36rx7]

As I understand it....Adding a fuel cell does not require anyone to change a class.  If the memory is correct, it says adding a fuel cell is encouraged.

[Tachyon]

Wow!  Lots of interest in this subject ....any conclusions.....AGM is fast approaching

I recently had one person contact me about competing with a Porsche GT3 - street -- what class should that go in? IT1
What if it was a Race Prepared GT3 cup car....where should it go....GT2
Different class than the street GT3 - ?

A month ago I had someone ask about their 2 year old ZRI Corvette - street - IT1?

Question:

Leave the rules as they are or alter them?

Is GTS and ITGT stand alone classes to build towards?

Gary

[vintagebmw]

Speaking of the Porsche GT3 in GT2 I was always curious about this. According to the regs it should land in Gt1 or am I missing something?

GT-1 2551 cc to 6000 cc 0.53 lb/cc
GT-2 2051 cc to 2550 cc 0.90 lb/cc
GT-3 1551 cc to 2050 cc 1.05 lb/cc
GT-4 1190 cc to 1550 cc 1.10 lb/cc
GT-5 Up to 1190 cc 1.20 lb/cc

[Tachyon]

As of today's rules it should run .....GT1 if it's a GT car or run GTS.  It should never have been in GT2 -- 3600 cc...it was identified but no competitor challenge it at the time.....only volunteers at timing and scoring.....

If it can make the IP classification.....IT1 ot ITGT??

[Al36rx7]

I believe SCCA has classed the car in stock form as GT2.  I would have to go through their latest regs to confirm.

[Al36rx7]

Yup...SCCA classes the GT3 Cup car in GT2.....Provided it is prepared as per GT3 Cup Specifications (Min weight is 2730lbs)  In the odd case / request I think we should review to see if and how SCCA has classed a particular vehicle.

[CRXsi]

In the odd case / request I think we should review to see if and how SCCA has classed a particular vehicle.

This is my opinion as well...both for IT and GT...and as has also been said previously we don't want to turn cars away either...

[gary]

Not much activity here. everyone thinking still?
here is more of my thoughts;
As I see it we have a few objectives;
-reduce classes.
-closer competition.
- where to place odd cars( cars that dont fit current IT classes)
-safety of TOO FAST ITGT CARS.
-where to place modified ( engine modified) cars
- award ITGT  and GTS cars or not.
I think the CASC rules is a place to start.  because the IT classes use engine size to divide the classes at least we have a method of placing a car that is not listed it the current listing.
As discussion has gone on I see that we still need the ITGT class and the GTS class.
reposting class suggestion: with additions.
I like the casc classes . i think we can add a modification list to it.
like this;
keep classes as listed,
ITGT= highly modified.( for lack of better term)
IT1=2751cc and up
IT2=1751 cc to 2750cc.
IT3=up to 1750cc

keep the existing CASC permitted modification and add these,
suggest limit of one modification. ie engine swap= one mod.
wcma permitted modifications;( one only)
- engine swap , reclassify as per displacement
-engine  with vvt or vtec, move up a class, original equip or not.
- factory forced induction, fit in IT1  only.
- wankle , non turbo. IT2 only
-internal mods( regular engine) camshaft(s) and cam gears only.  no other internal mods.  move up a class
-final drive, whatever fits in stock  housing.
-aftermarket forced induction=ITGT only

other restrictions;
- no itb conversions. allowed if stock on that engine.
- stand alone ecu? ( not sure about this one) I think not allowed.
   possible allow piggyback ecu?
- no close ratio gearboxes( aftermarket)
weight of cars.   as per published weights
  cars with engine mods add 150 lbs
- no change in number of cylinders
- no change of manufacturer, eg no chevy v8 nissan 240

If a car stiil does not fit it can be put into GTS.
comments? weight not enough,too much?
I like to limit to one mod as IT class it still suposed to be a  streetable type class.

More suggestions;
-cars in IT1 or ITGT have one year  after building car to install fuel cell and any other safty items  as per GT rules.
-to keep competition closer the competition director should have the authortity to move a car up a class or to mandate addtional weight to a car
-If we adopt these changes I think  awards/ trophy should be possible for all classes.

Gary86

[CRXsi]

One question Gary,

Do you mean CACC or CASC rules? I haven't gone through the CASC rles so I will have to just in case but I don't think they even have a class called IT, I think it is GT or Open GT...


For the most part I like your ideas...some fine tuning and they could work decently...